xp and 98 can't see each other

[american finn]

As far as i know, at least in this country, most people who have home networks are people who also have a broadband connection, and so many (if not most) of them have the kind of combined modem/router i have. As i learned, this does not allow use of TCP/IP for file sharing without extra protection such as NAT which is apparently much more difficult to install than IPX or NetBEUI, especially since many already have older home networks running on NetBEUI.

Since none of the diagrams on homenethelp had a one-box modem and router, this solution is indeed apparently not very common in the US yet, but it will no doubt soon be.

Since people have been forced to buy new computers every few years, not only people with a lot of cash have more than one, and home networks will soon be very common. And most normal people will prefer an easy solution to home + global networking with one device (and they'll take it for granted that there's also a preinstalled network card ready in every computer sold today).

There no doubt are some people, but i don't know anyone who has a broadband connection who doesn't get a software firewall installed or doesn't do it on their own. People with a home network and broadband who don't get a firewall are even more rare since they're usually more savvy.

I didn't find the amount of information on networking overwhelming; rather, the contradictions, the lack of clarity, and the missing info on basic things was the problem.

There also seem to be a lot of very dogmatic people out there who, for example, make using or not using certain protocols into a kind of religion; it's great to see that pracnet and the experts on this forum are more flexible and ready to show where what kind is appropriate and where it's dangerous or unnecessary.

If XP doesn't remind the user to restart after changing settings, this and the reminder to restart all machines should not be missing from any networking guide. If it's true that many if not most networking problems are caused by incorrect firewall settings, asking newbies to delete and reinstall their firewall is unrealistic but asking them to check if disabling it fixes the network should be the first troubleshooting advice.

I did not cross post. I tried to move the discussion away from the thread and told you i was doing that because the thread's subject was no longer appropriate. Since you preferred to answer in the old thread, i did not complain about that even though the same questions had been presented in the new thread in a form trying to better suit your needs. The content was identical.

Thanks again for your time and effort!

[cszeto]

My time and efforts seems to be fruitless in this interchange as none of what I presented has assisted you in anyway, based upon the information that you have provided. As someone who claims the "newbie" title/classification as a fallback, you have strong opinions and assumptions. Some may not be complete nor correct, but my points on those have not made any affect either. Most "newbies" do not go off and install or activate firewalls, since most "newbies" do not know what they are.

Your additional post provided a key piece of information that your router was not provided by your ISP. Combination modem/router units have traditionally been provided by the ISPs, since there were varying approaches of DSL as well as cable modem implementations. There still are when it comes to access control. NAT is part of most, if not all SOHO routers that are in use in most home networks, as well as a good portion of the "Internet Sharing" software options.

A required restart of the OS for changes that were not covered in the list/guide that you have been referring to, well... Is a setting that you have chosen to make - not something that was suggested by the list/guide that you have chosen to reference. At least not on my last review of the list/guide that you have referenced from this forum.

Yes, there are some folks that stand by only what they have been exposed to and have not kept up with the changes in technology, but everyone is somewhat guilty of that to some extent. The technology is changing very rapidly. There is also the other extreme in which some folks make broad assumptions that may be limited only to their own experiences too.

A lot of the "contradictions" are a mixture of both camps of thoughts/practices and everything in between. A lot of the information can contradict some other information when it is taken out of context, maybe from a lack of understanding the subject that is being covered.

Making assumptions is something that we can not avoid as long as there are choices. The choices provide different approaches to different needs, but also makes things complex (if not impossible) to assume any level of commonality. Sometimes "tuning" of the assumptions can occur through feedback from others.

If one takes a closer look at the "Blaster" outbreak... There are many signs within that outbreak that there are still a lot of machines that are on the Internet without any protection. Most high speed ISP offerings do not include any type of firewall protection, let alone even provide support for it... A lot of dial-ups are not protected, but may still be part of some home/local networks too.

[american finn]

Originally posted by cszeto
My time and efforts seems to be fruitless in this interchange as none of what I presented has assisted you in anyway, based upon the information that you have provided.

I've learned a lot, and i thank you for it.

As someone who claims the "newbie" title/classification as a fallback, you have strong opinions and assumptions. Some may not be complete nor correct, but my points on those have not made any affect either.

Yes they have; just as an example, your claims (and the diagrams at homenethelp) convinced me that the kinds of modem/router combos common in Finland are not yet so in the US. I would have been interested in hearing your opinion as an expert as to whether my prediction that they'll become common in the US too sounds plausible and whether it would make sense to mention them in pracnet guides.

And just because i'm a networking newbie, doesn't mean i can't express an opinion about the networking info offered to newbies (a newbie is the best expert on their usefulness for other newbies!) and your claims that my case is a strange exception.

Most "newbies" do not go off and install or activate firewalls, since most "newbies" do not know what they are.

Just because someone is a home networking newbie doesn't mean they haven't been using computers for many years and don't know anything about Internet traffic and its dangers! At least here in Finland, *all* ISPs tell new broadband customers about the absolute need for a firewall. What would you estimate to be the percentage of broadband users in the US not using a firewall?

I don't know what post you misunderstood as to my router not having been provided by my ISP. They're not the manufacturer, but that is probably rarely the case.

A required restart of the OS for changes that were not covered in the list/guide that you have been referring to, well... Is a setting that you have chosen to make - not something that was suggested by the list/guide that you have chosen to reference. At least not on my last review of the list/guide that you have referenced from this forum.

Not only does
http://practicallynetworked.com/shar..._protocols.htm forget to mention restarts of *all* connected computers (like all other pracnet pages i read), pracnet doesn't even mention this in the troubleshooting pages i found. In addition, this page recommends precisely the settings i made and precisely for the kind of hardware i have (although it wasn't easy to realize they meant a modem/router combo too) because TCP for file sharing wouldn't be safe in (many) cases like mine. Another serious omission/mistake is, if i've understood correctly, that right after saying "Most networks can safely use TCP/IP. The main exceptions to this rule are when...", users are not warned that the unbinding of TCP for file sharing, described below as something one "can" do, is necessary for security reasons in these cases. And the page referred to, http://www.practicallynetworked.com/.../securnet.htm, doesn't explain how to do the unbinding in XP.

[cszeto]

You state that the information conveyed has helped you, but you still insist that you have a "standard" configuration and that the general information is lacking or inconsistent. It appears that the point is still being missed, the information does address the majority of the configurations and yours is a little tougher based on what you are trying to accomplish, plus what you may have chosen to discount (i.e. you probably have a NAT router that keeps your network private from the Internet, but your ISP will probably have a more definitive answer to that).

There are other markets besides Finland, as we are mostly aware of. Some markets have more choices on ISPs than others, for good or bad...

In most situations where modem/router units are in use, the units have been preconfigured by the ISP. In markets that have limited choices on ISPs, the equipment may change hands, but is still being connected back to the same ISP infrastructure. That situation may be much more tricky, if not next to impossible, when there are multiple choices in ISPs that are utilizing different infrastructure approaches.

Forming opinions and advancing them forward is part of learning, it's natural. Something along the saying of "...old dog, new tricks..." Having opinions is natural, but having strong opinions and standing by them is taking a position that you already know better - maybe even challenging others between opinions versus facts. Maturing and advancing opinions is how most folks build a base of knowledge.

The "Blaster" outbreak was not limited to any one particular country. Different ISPs have taken different approaches to how they support and advise their customers, assumptions are next to impossible to make across ISPs. The outbreak is a good gauge that there are more ISPs that leave firewall decisions to the individual customers to support themselves based upon their own choice of Operating Systems.

The lowest common denominator can be a starting assumption point for most generic guides. Some may be localized, but some may not be. This forum is associated with www.practicallynetworked.com, but does not appear to have anything more than a close link and maybe resource sharing between the two entities. Folks that write articles for the main site do not seem to participate actively on this forum and vice versa. That can lead to confusion, but that is something beyond the control of the forum participants. This forum does have a pretty active international membership.